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  1. #91
    Hoya
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    Quote Originally Posted by 33isgod View Post
    I can't wait to see who this "insider" is. He'll be hung from the top of Staples before the week is over.
    Buss is not going to hang his own kid.

    Quote Originally Posted by bland
    There is no practical way to bring in O'Neal under the salary cap WITHOUT moving bryant. It just cannot be done - the numbers are impossible.
    Actually, it'd be pretty simple numbers-wise. Odom and Kwame.

    The problem isn't the $, it's having the desirable trading pieces for other teams.

    Quote Originally Posted by bland
    The two-guard position, along with the small forward, are the LEAST important positions in basketball.

    With the obvious exception of Jordan's Bulls, I dare anyone to name one legitimate championship level team in the last 25 years that had a shooting guard as its best player. The only one that I can think of is Portland's Drexler-era. Go ahead, I'll wait.
    I can think of one very quickly with a wing player... LeBron's Cavs right now. But you mentioned that.

    Jordan's teams won six titles in eight years. You can't just toss that aside, because that is the single biggest discrepancy in your theory.
    Last edited by Hoya; May 30th, 2007 at 02:38 PM.

  2. #92
    Little Big Man 33isgod's Avatar




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    Quote Originally Posted by bland View Post
    With the obvious exception of Jordan's Bulls, I dare anyone to name one legitimate championship level team in the last 25 years that had a shooting guard as its best player. The only one that I can think of is Portland's Drexler-era. Go ahead, I'll wait.

    There was a kid named Dwyane Wade who was by far the best player on the Miami Heat roster who also won the Finals MVP.

    With all of our personal opinions about Kobe's personality aside, what would you have done if you were in his position? It's funny how Kevin Garnett can do it but when Kobe does it, everything is wrong because Kobe is a whiner. Was Kobe wrong for suggesting West came back? Was Kobe wrong for wanting to win?

    It's already been said that Kobe is NOT to blame for Shaq's dismissal and that Jerry Buss was the main architect in the master plans. Even when Shaq says he knows it wasn't Kobe but rather Jerry Bus, it still is not enough for the masses because why? Because they just don't like Kobe.

    Everyone blames Kobe for the mess that is the Laker's roster, but in seriousness, who's fault is it really? Who passed up on Baron Davis, Ron Artest and Carlos Boozer but instead went for signing ridiculous contracts in Radmanovich and Cook? Who traded Caron Butler for Kwame Brown? And no the answer is not Mitch Kuptchak, but rather Jim Buss.

    None of this would have blown over if it wasn't for the "insider." If you were the franchise player and someone in your very own organization rats you out to the media anonymously (coward) then how would you have handled it? You would have been just as uncomfortable and have little trust in the organization yourselves.

    Kobe is to blame for the atmosphere in the Locker room. His aura does reek of arrogance but his thirst for winning only absorbs it all. And for those that posed the question as to who the hell wants to play with Kobe, well apparently Baron Davis, Ron Artest, Carlos Boozer and Jermaine O'neill does. Fact remains is that Kobe is the best player on the planet with no help. He doesn't have his Rodmans and Kerr's nor does he have his Parkers and Ginoblis, hell, he doesn't even have his Fox's and Horrys. Fact is, the Lakers aren't going to win with the current roster with a bunch of scrubs, and Kobe is justified when he demands changes on the roster. And when someone in the organization starts crap in the media and the media starts crap with Kobe, he is justified in wanted to be traded when no one wants to defend him from within.

    He's only stated what every Laker fan has expressed the last few years.

    To all the people who hate Kobe but has never even seen him play, or even know the state of the franchise, stop kidding yourselves.

  3. #93
    Hoya
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    Quote Originally Posted by 33isgod
    There was a kid named Dwyane Wade who was by far the best player on the Miami Heat roster who also won the Finals MVP.
    A very good point.

    I personally can't stand these "you can't win with X" or "you need X to win" myths. There are many different ways to build a championship team.

    Quote Originally Posted by 33isgod
    It's funny how Kevin Garnett can do it but when Kobe does it, everything is wrong because Kobe is a whiner.
    If Garnett played for the Lakers, we'd feel the same way.

    Garnett's behavior is irrelevant because he doesn't play here right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by 33isgod
    Was Kobe wrong for suggesting West came back?
    Absolutely, unequivocally YES.

    1. Jerry West is currently under contract with another team.
    2. He's insulting and undermining his own GM.

    Quote Originally Posted by 33isgod
    It's already been said that Kobe is NOT to blame for Shaq's dismissal and that Jerry Buss was the main architect in the master plans. Even when Shaq says he knows it wasn't Kobe but rather Jerry Buss, it still is not enough for the masses because why? Because they just don't like Kobe.
    If you think Kobe was not involved in this in the slightest, if not directly then indirectly, you're delusional.

    I love Kobe as a fan but he was as much to blame as Shaq was for the falling out, regardless of them playing nice right now. It's been pretty well documented that he would've left as a free agent had Shaq stayed. There was no explicit demand, but you fill in the blanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by 33isgod
    None of this would have blown over if it wasn't for the "insider."
    No, both sides are wrong. Kobe called out the front office first before any of this got started.

    Quote Originally Posted by 33isgod
    His aura does reek of arrogance but his thirst for winning only absorbs it all.
    I have no idea what this babble even means.
    Last edited by Hoya; May 30th, 2007 at 04:17 PM.

  4. #94
    devenir gris gescom's Avatar




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    he's junk and the Lakers & their fans will be better off when he's gone...
    GESCOM: it's never too early to start beefing up your obituary!

  5. #95
    Concussed Villain Mondo Blando's Avatar




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    Actually, it'd be pretty simple numbers-wise. Odom and Kwame.

    The problem isn't the $, it's having the desirable trading pieces for other teams.
    Indiana would have to:

    A) want to trade O'Neal
    B) bypass much more attractive offers
    C) be willing to accept Kwame Brown
    D) add in another $3 million to the salary to even out the cap hit

    Ain't gonna happen.

    I can think of one very quickly with a wing player... LeBron's Cavs right now. But you mentioned that.

    Jordan's teams won six titles in eight years. You can't just toss that aside, because that is the single biggest discrepancy in your theory.
    The Cavs aren't going to win anything right now.

    The Bulls are the only exception to my statement, but even they were in a completely different salary era. They could afford to stock their bench with well-paid veteran role players. Even that being said, it took the best player of his generation something like seven years to learn that skill alone doesn't win anything. Jordan had to make the concious effort to play a team game, something that Bryant has never displayed more than a quarter at a time.

    That being said, it has still happened only with one team in the modern NBA.

  6. #96
    Hoya
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    Quote Originally Posted by bland
    Indiana would have to:

    A) want to trade O'Neal
    B) bypass much more attractive offers
    C) be willing to accept Kwame Brown
    D) add in another $3 million to the salary to even out the cap hit

    Ain't gonna happen.
    Your words "the numbers are impossible." But here you're actually agreeing with me. The numbers aren't the problem; they do work with NBA trade rules. Bryant/Brown for O'Neal, solely on numbers, is a valid trade. Toss in Bynum if you want and numbers-wise it still works.

    But yes, unrealistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by bland
    The Cavs aren't going to win anything right now.
    You said championship level. They're tied 2-2 with a great team, so they fit the criterion... but I'd still lean towards the Spurs as the '07 champs.

    Quote Originally Posted by bland
    Jordan had to make the concious effort to play a team game, something that Bryant has never displayed more than a quarter at a time.
    The "Jordan played a team game" argument is circular logic. He played a team game because they won, and they won because he played a team game.

    Nobody looks at Michael Jordan's career and says "unselfish." They say "dominant scorer." His scoring and assists numbers in his peak seasons are pretty much identical to Kobe's, but he had a stronger supporting cast.

    Quote Originally Posted by bland
    That being said, it has still happened only with one team in the modern NBA.
    Minimalize it all you want with the "one team" comment, but it happened SIX times.

    What about Dwyane Wade? Larry Bird? Isiah Thomas? Weren't they swingmen and the premier players on their team? I agree with you that the center is the most important position in the game, and the 2-guard is the most replaceable player... but the "2-guard can't be your best player to win" theory is bunk.

  7. #97
    Hit it like a baby seal SmytheKing's Avatar




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    Quote Originally Posted by 33isgod View Post
    Everyone blames Kobe for the mess that is the Laker's roster, but in seriousness, who's fault is it really? Who passed up on Baron Davis, Ron Artest and Carlos Boozer but instead went for signing ridiculous contracts in Radmanovich and Cook? Who traded Caron Butler for Kwame Brown? And no the answer is not Mitch Kuptchak, but rather Jim Buss.
    Difference is that none of those guys were free agents. If the Lakers could have traded Caron Butler for Boozer, they would have. Fact is, Utah wanted Odom AND Butler for him. They didn't have the pieces that NO wanted when they were getting rid of Davis either. It's not as simple as it is on NBA live to make these deals.
    Quote Originally Posted by 33isgod
    And for those that posed the question as to who the hell wants to play with Kobe, well apparently Baron Davis, Ron Artest, Carlos Boozer and Jermaine O'neill does.
    Really? Makes you wonder why they didn't wait until their contracts were up to sign with the Lakers then huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by 33isgod
    Fact remains is that Kobe is the best player on the planet with no help. He doesn't have his Rodmans and Kerr's nor does he have his Parkers and Ginoblis, hell, he doesn't even have his Fox's and Horrys. Fact is, the Lakers aren't going to win with the current roster with a bunch of scrubs, and Kobe is justified when he demands changes on the roster.
    For YEARS people were talking about how poor the Lakers bench was. YEARS!!! Now all of a sudden it's the reason they won those championships. I'll tell you what the reason was. It was defense. Look at the defense they played during those years compared to now. Defense isn't about talent, it's about effort. Always has been, always will be. You really think skill wise Rick Fox was that much better than Luke Walton? Or that Horry was that much better than Kwame Brown? I doubt Brown will EVER hit a shot like Horry, but it's not like Horry is miles better or something. There are two big differences between the championship years and the years now. Shaq and Fisher. That's really about it. They had some good solid vets back then, but those are the two big guys they're missing right now. You put Shaq and Fisher from four years ago on this team and they're in the finals again. Easy.

  8. #98
    Concussed Villain Mondo Blando's Avatar




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    33isgodThere was a kid named Dwyane Wade who was by far the best player on the Miami Heat roster who also won the Finals MVP.

    Horsefeathers! If you think that this is true, you have no idea what you are talking about. I'm no Shaq fan, but the ONLY reason that team won was because a dominant big man changed the scope of the opposition's defensive scheme, allowing a very good, but not great, slasher to abuse the open holes in the coverage. It was the Heat's defense that won them that title - Mourning, Haslem, Jones, etc.

    With all of our personal opinions about Kobe's personality aside, what would you have done if you were in his position? It's funny how Kevin Garnett can do it but when Kobe does it, everything is wrong because Kobe is a whiner. Was Kobe wrong for suggesting West came back? Was Kobe wrong for wanting to win?
    I'd stop kidding myself into believing that I could win a championship on my own. It doesn't happen. I'd change my focus from being a top scorer to being a better team player. I wouldn't have demanded max-money that would handcuff my teams opportunities to get the quality big men that are required to win a title. In short, it would require Kobe Bryant to take a step away from the apologists and ass kissers and grow up.

    It's already been said that Kobe is NOT to blame for Shaq's dismissal and that Jerry Buss was the main architect in the master plans. Even when Shaq says he knows it wasn't Kobe but rather Jerry Bus, it still is not enough for the masses because why? Because they just don't like Kobe.
    Pure garbage. Buss has every right to make his own tough decisions, and he screwed the pooch with this one. Kobe Bryant puts asses in the seats, end of story. He won't win another title without an elite big man.

    Everyone blames Kobe for the mess that is the Laker's roster, but in seriousness, who's fault is it really? Who passed up on Baron Davis, Ron Artest and Carlos Boozer but instead went for signing ridiculous contracts in Radmanovich and Cook? Who traded Caron Butler for Kwame Brown? And no the answer is not Mitch Kuptchak, but rather Jim Buss.
    Agree somewhat. The Kwame trade was a disaster from the start. The Bynum pick was ridiculous, and the signing of Aaron McKie was wasted money. Oh yeah, Radmonovich was signed on Bryant's recommendation. This team can't draft for ****.

    Of course, there are plenty of good, sound reasons to avoid those other players. Davis has had some very good partial seasons, but he's had only one great complete year. Utah's offer was better than anything the Lakers could have come up with at the time, and you can't hold Kupchak responsible for the fact that the Jazz refused to listen to offers for him last year. Artest? Artest? That is another diaster waiting to happen.

    None of this would have blown over if it wasn't for the "insider." If you were the franchise player and someone in your very own organization rats you out to the media anonymously (coward) then how would you have handled it? You would have been just as uncomfortable and have little trust in the organization yourselves.
    So, if this is the truth, he still shouldn't say it? Both sides are in damage control for the inevitable Bryant trade.

    Kobe is to blame for the atmosphere in the Locker room. His aura does reek of arrogance but his thirst for winning only absorbs it all. And for those that posed the question as to who the hell wants to play with Kobe, well apparently Baron Davis, Ron Artest, Carlos Boozer and Jermaine O'neill does. Fact remains is that Kobe is the best player on the planet with no help. He doesn't have his Rodmans and Kerr's nor does he have his Parkers and Ginoblis, hell, he doesn't even have his Fox's and Horrys. Fact is, the Lakers aren't going to win with the current roster with a bunch of scrubs, and Kobe is justified when he demands changes on the roster. And when someone in the organization starts crap in the media and the media starts crap with Kobe, he is justified in wanted to be traded when no one wants to defend him from within.

    He's only stated what every Laker fan has expressed the last few years.
    I don't blame him for being frustrated. However, it was the Shaq trade that cost this team any chance to win the championship. Odom, while a quality player, is mentally weak. Butler was the jewel in that deal, and I hated to see him go. The only reason he was traded is because the front office knew that they couldn't truly compete without a dominant big. They took a chance on the nearly retarded Brown, and lost. It was a gamble that was necessary because they couldn't win with their group of big men. Brian Grant was a salary cap nightmare.

    All of this could have been avoided if Bryant would have signed the deal before Shaq was traded. The Lakers hand was forced to trade Shaq within days of Bryant's UFA period. If they knew Bryant was going to come back, they could have held out for a better return for Shaq. Bryant knew damn well what he was doing by making sure that O'Neal and Jackson were gone before he signed that extension, and he is DIRECTLY responsible for the current state of the franchise.


    To all the people who hate Kobe but has never even seen him play, or even know the state of the franchise, stop kidding yourselves.
    Huh?

  9. #99
    Elegant Diehard's Avatar




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    Jerry Buss is more to blame for Shaq leaving than Kobe. Saying that he's the one responsible and deserves the blunt of the blame is just flat out ignorant.

    Maybe now that Kobe's spoken his mind upper management will finally get stuff done instead of being content with mediocrity and refusing to do anything to improve this team.

  10. #100
    Hit it like a baby seal SmytheKing's Avatar




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    Quote Originally Posted by DiehardKingsFan View Post
    Jerry Buss is more to blame for Shaq leaving than Kobe. Saying that he's the one responsible and deserves the blunt of the blame is just flat out ignorant.

    Maybe now that Kobe's spoken his mind upper management will finally get stuff done instead of being content with mediocrity and refusing to do anything to improve this team.
    That's just silly to say they're content with mediocrity. Like jbruin said earlier, we're spoiled. We're four years from winning the ****ing title three years in a row for crying out loud. The problem is that they're so tied up with bad contracts (they're STILL paying Brian Grant) that they can't do anything besides using the MLE which ALWAYS goes to people that don't deserve it and have had one good year out of six.

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