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About This Page: This is a discussion on Baseball within the LetsGoKings.com forums, at Los Angeles Kings Hockey Fan Forum. Originally Posted by DieAvsDie
I'm surprised that some people aren't thrilled with this. There's a difference between trading a couple prospects for a rental player and trading a couple of
I'm surprised that some people aren't thrilled with this. There's a difference between trading a couple prospects for a rental player and trading a couple of prospects for renting Manny freaking Ramirez.
Well, when I first heard it, I went into sever and brief denial followed by extraordinary anger (I thought for sure we had dealt Kemp).
Panic started to set in followed by "can I still be a Dodger fan after this? Is this the end? Is it??"
Then when I heard it was LaRoche and not Kemp, relief set in. Then all the details started coming in, and I got pretty happy about things.
I'm surprised that some people aren't thrilled with this. There's a difference between trading a couple prospects for a rental player and trading a couple of prospects for renting Manny freaking Ramirez.
He's a pain in the ass for sure, but he'll be distracted enough with a change of scenery to be happy for a while. Hell, he may even like it here and give them a little advantage in resigning him (especially if he helps the Dodgers go on a tear and do some serious damage like i think he will).
But the bottom line is they're adding one of the best bats in the game into their lineup. When Furcal's back in there, your lineup is almost AL-scary.
And you know this how, exactly?
The new car smell is going to wear off, fast. He's a rental, which is fine, but don't try to think it's got any future upside. And don't bet on him being "distracted" into playing well. "Distracted" into not playing, "distracted" into disrupting the clubhouse? Those are good bets.
Did anyone else read this article by Peter Gammons (who knows a thing or two about baseball in Boston)? I'm not an insider, but it was a free article for a short time.
It was a pretty serious indictment. Telling teammates he's going to get a 4-year $100 million contract, sitting out games against good pitchers. The Red Sox players covered for him a lot. You think Jeff Kent is going to put up with his bull****?
The upside is if Boras can convince his boy to hit the living hell out of the ball to get him that ridiculous payday he's looking for.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adgy, followed by others...
Frickin' Wolvie!
Last edited by Wolvie; July 31st, 2008 at 04:50 PM.
Manny Ramirez is not what he used to be. His OPS the last year and a half is the lowest it's been in 13 years. There's a perception among Red Sox fans that he can't turn on the fastball like he used to. He's missed a lot of time the last couple of years, as well. It could be that he's starting to break down.
Will the Dodgers care? Probably not. It's worth a two month gamble to them. But it's more of a window into what the Red Sox were thinking. From their perspective, they're trading a guy who's been a .900 OPS player the last year and a half (..and is a brutal defender) for a guy who they can reasonably expect to be a .900 OPS outfielder who's a little better in the field.
__________________ Go! Go! Black and gold! Old-time hockey, bar the door, clear the track it's all-out war. Light the lamp, throw a hit, black and gold never quits. The barn is full, our team's in town, so put 'em up boys, knock 'em out. Drop the puck, it's time to go.
- Dropkick Murphys, "Time To Go"
He swore he would but who knows. The expected timetable was around the end of August, so adding some rehab time ... if the Dodgers see him at all this season, it will be no earlier than Sep 5 or so.
I think Manny Freaking Ramirez will play very well the remaining two months of the season because its in his best financial interest. He doesn't have two years of $20 per to rely on anymore and will need to "earn" the 4 year $100 contract he seeks. I think he can kill offensively knowing that millions of future dollars for him depends on it. Otherwise he'll be in a similar situation as Andruw Jones was where many teams didn't want to pay because of his decreased production last year. Manny needs to redeem himself during these next three months (I'm optimistically including October)
It was a pretty serious indictment. Telling teammates he's going to get a 4-year $100 million contract, sitting out games against good pitchers. The Red Sox players covered for him a lot. You think Jeff Kent is going to put up with his bull****?
Who gives a flying **** about what Jeff Kent is going to put up with. The guy has an OPS+ of 83 right now. If Manny rakes like he can I don't give a **** about what Jeff Kent thinks.
__________________ "11:19 -- You're not gonna believe this, but J.D. Drew took a called third strike to end the inning.
(Note: Dodgers, Braves and Cardinals fans everywhere are nodding and saying, "Yup ... been there, done that.")
It's the ideal time to trade Jason Bay. He's closing in on free agency but has a year left of control and is under contract for a good salary. That extra year of control seems to be valued very highly in the trade market right now, given the delta between the return on Mark Teixeira in 2007 and the return on him as a two-month rental in 2008. The Pirates aren't going anywhere this season, but they've added to their stock of players who already can contribute in the majors, or will be able to contribute soon, for the minimum salary. They also have added one high-upside prospect.
Andy LaRoche can -- and should -- be playing every day for a major league club right now. However, the Dodgers have seemed to view him as a shirt they received as a gift and didn't like but couldn't bear to part with, either. Now headed to a team without a capable third baseman, LaRoche should hit for average and post a great OBP, and he'll provide average power and fringe-average defense. He's not a great athlete and isn't a player I'd want to have when he's in his 30s, but for the next four or five years, he should be very good.
Craig Hansen was a first-rounder in 2005 and could have gone in the top 10 had he not demanded a $4 million bonus. That allowed him to fall to the Red Sox, who gave him his money and a major league contract. But although he has a strong arm, poor command and a stiff delivery have led to bad performances in the majors. He typically throws 93-96 mph and flashes an outstanding slider, but for every good slider he throws, two back up on him. He has an above-average changeup in the upper 80s with good fade, but he rarely uses it. The Craig Hansen I've seen endless times in Boston isn't a big league pitcher, but he's worth a shot.
Brandon Moss should slot in as the everyday left fielder in Pittsburgh, but he projects more as a quality fourth outfielder on a good team. He has fringe-average power and plate discipline, and would be an everyday player if he could play center, but his bat doesn't quite profile like an everyday corner outfielder's. He probably will need a right-handed platoon partner if the Pirates want to play him every day against right-handed pitchers.
The one real upside player in the deal is Bryan Morris, who is in his first full year back from Tommy John surgery and already is pitching well in low-Class A ball. Morris throws 90-96 mph with a potential curveball out pitch and a sharp two-plane breaker with good depth. He's still developing his changeup, and his command also is improving but still below average. He throws slightly across his body, which could lead to arm injuries (and could, in theory, be part of why he blew out his elbow in the first place). The Dodgers have been working with him to try to minimize that, though. In a perfect world, he'd be a No. 2 or No. 3 starter, but if the arm problems recur, he might be a dominant late-game reliever.
The Pirates have been quietly stocking players who lack upside but can contribute at the big league level for the minimum salary. At some point, they'll need to inject some star-caliber players, but in the meantime, it's a sound strategy to field a competitive team without wasting money on "proven" veterans. And because no team was willing to surrender an impact prospect for Bay, it was smart for them to take the best offer available now rather than to try to play the market again in December when Bay's value would have declined again.
What the Red Sox get
The Red Sox get slightly worse for this year but suddenly look much better for next year. Bay is a definite short-term offensive downgrade from Manny Ramirez, and although he has power and plate discipline, he's been doing it against inferior pitching in the National League and is a small step down from a full-strength, not-mailing-it-in Manny at the plate. But he's a better fielder, as Manny consistently has rated among the worst left fielders in baseball, and Bay is less likely to have a Jason-being-Jason day off or to fail to run out a key ground ball.
Bay will really improve the 2009 Red Sox. Boston was almost certain to decline Ramirez's $20 million option for 2009, which would have left the Red Sox with an offensive hole to fill for next year. Bay is under control for next year, so the hole is already filled, and he's signed for an amazingly cheap $7.5 million. Even considering the $7 million Boston sent L.A. to pay Manny's freight for this year (because the Dodgers told teams they could not add any payroll this season), the Red Sox are getting a $15-20 million bat in Bay without the headaches Ramirez had caused lately. And they managed to do it without depleting their strong farm system or committing to a four- or five-year deal they'd regret by the middle of the second year.
What the Dodgers get
The Dodgers get much better this season in exchange for a great young arm who is probably three years away and a third baseman on whom they appeared to place little or no value. You have to imagine this is seen as a huge win within the L.A. front office.
If Ramirez, now freed from the team that "doesn't deserve" him, stops mailing in various at-bats and hits toward the right-tail end of his abilities (as he hit in April, for example), the Dodgers have just made a quick two-win upgrade in exchange for a good player they weren't going to use and a quality prospect, and they didn't have to add to their payroll. The move keeps Juan Pierre and Andruw Jones on the bench where they belong, and I wouldn't be surprised if the team were to try to outright Jones off the roster and assign him to Triple-A to clear the roster spot. The move makes the Dodgers slight favorites to win the NL West, assuming they put the right personnel on the field.
Last edited by ASUcruz; July 31st, 2008 at 06:26 PM.
I like the deal... even if the options are gone and here's why. Manny is playing the rest of this season for the mega contract for the next 4. Dude will be going all out because he is unrestricted and it should be a good ride his 4 year 100 million dollar deal is in his own hands.
__________________ This is the end
Beautiful friend
This is the end
My only friend, the end
I like the deal... even if the options are gone and here's why. Manny is playing the rest of this season for the mega contract for the next 4. Dude will be going all out because he is unrestricted and it should be a good ride his 4 year 100 million dollar deal is in his own hands.
Yea, that's the upside everyone is looking for, Manny playing for his last big payday.
And let's be honest folks, Manny isn't the same hitter he was 5 years ago which shouldn't come as a surprise since he was arguably one of the top 5 hitters in all of baseball, but he can still rake: .299/.398/.529. 140 OPS+
I'm really curious to see how the argument that he can "feast on NL pitching" works out versus going to a pitchers park. Sure there are good pitchers in the NL West and NL for that matter, but there are plenty of guys the caliber of Kip Wells.
Who gives a flying **** about what Jeff Kent is going to put up with. The guy has an OPS+ of 83 right now. If Manny rakes like he can I don't give a **** about what Jeff Kent thinks.
My point was less about what Jeff Kent thinks, and more about what a pissy Jeff Kent is going to do in the clubhouse, a la that veterans-vs.-rookies hubbub last year. We're one Torre removed from a team that was all effed up. Adding an enigmatic, self-centered player like Manny could easily affect chemistry.
And we're saying IF Manny hits it's all okay, which I happily concede... even though his numbers are down in a contract year (I mean, it's not like he wasn't playing for that next contract the last few months, too)... yet everyone seems perfectly content that he'll suddenly find motivation to coincide with diminishing (though still considerable) skills. THE GUY IS DODGING GOOD PITCHERS TO KEEP HIS NUMBERS UP. That is NOT the kind of contract year motivation you want.
So, once again, I understand "value" and the notion of a "good gamble" and I don't disagree with the trade on paper, but I still don't see this working out. And I'll be plenty happy if I'm wrong.
sarf
