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About This Page: This is a discussion on Politics within the LetsGoKings.com forums, at Los Angeles Kings Hockey Fan Forum. Originally Posted by KINGS17
I would argue what you call laziness, is what I call intellectual honesty. Not every position requires nuance.
I'm sick of people that after 47 years
I would argue what you call laziness, is what I call intellectual honesty. Not every position requires nuance.
I'm sick of people that after 47 years on this earth pretend to not have an opinion on when a child gets human rights. What does Obama think (in fact does he think), we'll never know because he won't tell us.
Your arguments about Obama's statement vs McCain's statement on when human life begins are wrong for the following reasons:
1) Both men stated a position, McCain "at the moment of conception" and Obama, in effect,r "I don't know." You have no grounds on which to state that McCain's position is more "intellectually honest" than Obama's. They're both answers but you are claiming that Obama's statement isn't an answer. Hence, you argument is based on a false premise and is itself false.
2) Even if we somehow found out conclusively that Obama's statement doesn't represent what he really thinks we still would not know if McCain's answer is what he really believes or whether he was just uttering a falsehood he knows will appeal to his targeted segment of voters.
In other words, given what we know niether man's comment is any more reliable than the other's. Being simple and direct does not make McCain more likely to be truthful.
However, we do have some information about the actions of the two men that may cast some light on what they actually believe about the value of human life and the rights of humans. McCain was a bomber pilot in Vietnam. Anyone who volunteers to bomb areas where civilians live cannot claim to value or respect human life and human rights more than anyone who has not chosen to do such a thing. That, however, is a side issue. The first two points are why your argument is invalid.
__________________
"For if once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." Thomas DeQuincey, 1700's
Last edited by Leonidas; August 20th, 2008 at 11:01 PM.
Your arguments about Obama's statement vs McCain's statement on when human life begins are wrong for the following reasons:
1) Both men stated a position, McCain "at the moment of conception" and Obama, in effect,r "I don't know." You have no grounds on which to state that McCain's position is more "intellectually honest" than Obama's. They're both answers but you are claiming that Obama's statement isn't an answer. Hence, you argument is based on a false premise and is itself false.
2) Even if we somehow found out conclusively that Obama's statement doesn't represent what he really thinks we still would not know if McCain's answer is what he really believes or whether he was just uttering a falsehood he knows will appeal to his targeted segment of voters.
In other words, given what we know niether man's comment is any more reliable than the other's. Being simple and direct does not make McCain more likely to be truthful.
However, we do have some information about the actions of the two men that may cast some light on what they actually believe about the value of human life and the rights of humans. McCain was a bomber pilot in Vietnam. Anyone who volunteers to bomb areas where civilians live cannot claim to value or respect human life and human rights more than anyone who has not chosen to do such a thing. That, however, is a side issue. The first two points are why your argument is invalid.
You try to paint yourself as this great intellectual, but what you say makes no sense whatsoever. You are basically saying here that it doesn't matter what either of them say about anything, because we can never trust that they are telling the truth. Heh, I thought I was cynical.
Your little rant about McCain's military record shows your true colors. I suppose George McGovern is a POS too, since he bombed cities in WWII. Tell me something were you one of the a**holes calling our servicemen baby killers when they came home from Vietnam?
I am not claiming that Obama's statement isn't an anwer, IT ISN'T AN ANSWER. Find a position in that answer other than, "I don't want to answer that question in this venue."
What amazes me is that it took you 4 or 5 paragraphs to put forth the argument, "Well, McCain could be lying." What a bag of hot gas you are.
As usual Leo, you got noth'in.
__________________ Hockey's original bad boy. The "Cowboy" Howie Young
Last edited by KINGS17; August 21st, 2008 at 08:37 AM.
I've only been around for 30... but sometimes I think it's at conception, sometimes I think it's at birth and sometimes ...
I always believed that Pro-Choice thinking was this: The right to choose when/if to terminate the pregnancy trumps the birth rights of the baby. Using this Pro-Choice definition, it's perfectly reasonable to allow for ambiguity about defining a baby's birth rights. Couple this with scientific thinking, and you can easily be in the position of "I don't know, it's above my pay-grade."
It's unfortunate that Pro-Lifers require any unscientific definition to such a delicate question. I like to use the analogy of when does the sky start? Is the air an inch off the ground considered sky? How about a mile off the ground? What about 100 feet above the tallest sky scraper, is that sky?
That's pretty weak. When was the last time you can recall that a poor man ran for president?
Could be they have investment houses that were never intended for their living purposes? In such a gotcha journalism environment, who wants to guess rather than know for certain?
McCain and his wife are rich people. That didn't seem to bother any of you in the last election when the Democrat candidate was married to a catsup heiress.
__________________ Hockey's original bad boy. The "Cowboy" Howie Young
That's pretty weak. When was the last time you can recall that a poor man ran for president?
Could be they have investment houses that were never intended for their living purposes? In such a gotcha journalism environment, who wants to guess rather than know for certain?
McCain and his wife are rich people. That didn't seem to bother any of you in the last election when the Democrat candidate was married to a catsup heiress.
What's actually weak is you saying that a question with a definitive answer like "How many houses do you own?" is tougher to answer than complex ethical questions like "When is a person a person?" or vague subjective questions like "What do you define as rich?" Seriously that's weak.
McCain could have just said: "I live in 3, 1 in California, one in Arizona, and one in Virginia but Cindy and I own a couple more for financial reasons." That's a definitive answer.
What's actually weak is you saying that a question with a definitive answer like "How many houses do you own?" is tougher to answer than complex ethical questions like "When is a person a person?" or vague subjective questions like "What do you define as rich?" Seriously that's weak.
McCain could have just said: "I live in 3, 1 in California, one in Arizona, and one in Virginia but Cindy and I own a couple more for financial reasons." That's a definitive answer.
I didn't say it was tough to answer. I said he may not be sure how many investment properties he and his wife own and he wants to make sure. It's an easy question to answer. He said he would check and make sure he provides an accurate answer.
The question that Obama skirted is one that every candidate that may someday appoint Supreme Court justices should have a well thought out position on that they can explain whenever the question arises.
But you go right on worrying about trying to "catch" McCain in some kind of "lie" about how rich he is or how many houses he and his wife own. It's an issue of extreme importance.
__________________ Hockey's original bad boy. The "Cowboy" Howie Young
I didn't say it was tough to answer. I said he may not be sure how many investment properties he and his wife own and he wants to make sure. It's an easy question to answer. He said he would check and make sure he provides an accurate answer.
The question that Obama skirted is one that every candidate that may someday appoint Supreme Court justices should have a well thought out position on that they can explain whenever the question arises.
But you go right on worrying about trying to "catch" McCain in some kind of "lie" about how rich he is or how many houses he and his wife own. It's an issue of extreme importance.
I see the wheels spinning K17 but you're just getting deeper in the mud...
Seriously. How many houses do you own? What percentage of Americans can't answer that question?
I see the wheels spinning K17 but you're just getting deeper in the mud...
Seriously. How many houses do you own? What percentage of Americans can't answer that question?
OMR - You're a legend in your own mind. The wheels aren't spinning. There isn't any mud. I'm shocked that a man with wealth has more complicated finances than I do. Wow!! Stop the presses.
__________________ Hockey's original bad boy. The "Cowboy" Howie Young
OMR - You're a legend in your own mind. The wheels aren't spinning. There isn't any mud. I'm shocked that a man with wealth has more complicated finances than I do. Wow!! Stop the presses.
It's amazing to me that McCain could stop all that pork in all those bills with all that financial lingo and all that legalese in the largest budget in the world, he could manage all those bribes from all those banks as part of the Keating 5, but when it comes to say "I live in 3 houses but I own more" we get an "I don't know."
I thought you were a fiscal conservative? Yet you're defending the guy who doesn't know the basic ins and outs of his finances. Basic questions like: How many houses do you own?
Last edited by OddManRush; August 21st, 2008 at 11:03 AM.
It's amazing to me that McCain could stop all that pork in all those bills with all that financial lingo and all that legalese in the largest budget in the world, he could manage all those bribes from all those banks as part of the Keating 5, but when it comes to say "I live in 3 houses but I own more" we get an "I don't know."
I thought you were a fiscal conservative? Yet you're defending the guy who doesn't know the basic ins and outs of his finances. Basic questions like: How many houses do you own?
The Keating 5 thing is ancient history. McCain got a slap on the wrist from the Senate for showing bad judgment. He was the prosecution's first witness and best witness at Keating's fraud trial.
It is well known that McCain and his wife keep their finances separate. Keep trying OMR. If Obama and the Dems thought there was something there they would have already tried to exploit it. Obama is smart enough to know that people in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks, since he has his own shady personal financial and real estate deals.
McCain knows the basic ins and outs of his own finances. He knows he and his wife are worth tens of millions of dollars. He pays people to handle the details of investing the money.
Really, is this all you have? DON'T VOTE McCAIN - HE'S RICH
__________________ Hockey's original bad boy. The "Cowboy" Howie Young
In such a gotcha journalism environment, who wants to guess rather than know for certain?
From the guy who started the thread about the pandering to the insanely religious right....hypocrite much?
FACT: "How many houses do you own?" is a much simpler question to answer than "When does life begin?" or "When does a fetus attain human rights?" or whatever rhetorical theological conundrum your panties are bunched over.
McCain got exposed as the career Washington elitist he is. He's insanely rich and his wife is insanely richer (something the right nailed John Kerry on four years ago. That anybody believes this guy is a "maverick," or anything other than another W-like Dunce who'll continue to raid the Federal Treasury and give the proceeds to big business is as senile as he is.
KINGS17
