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About This Page: This is a discussion on Politics within the LetsGoKings.com forums, at Los Angeles Kings Hockey Fan Forum. reason.tv - Videos > Living Large
And another article:
The Bare Necessities: A Generation Tries to Imagine Life Without iPods - WSJ.com
Fascinating...
I liked this line:
"It's not the
1. I think a better perspective on the middle class wouldn't be what a bunch of kids having their bills paid by mommy and daddy think, especially with an age group where conformity in material goods is always going to be high. They're probably not the best barometer.
2. The luxuries he mentions are all much more readily available and much cheaper than they were in the 1970s.
3. If you go to a lake to find boat-owners, you're selectively targeting the big spenders. Yes, these people are foolish spenders, but is it an accurate depiction of all of middle-class America?
I think 'Foolish Spenders' is a subjective judgement...especially when you don't know the ins-and-outs of the individuals finances.
When you say luxuries are more readily available and much cheaper than they were in the 70s, I think that's what has made those things "descend" (for lack of a better word) into daily life from their luxury status.
Prices for so many things have fallen drastically. Sure, utilities and gasoline have gone up, but have they gone up so much as to offset the drop in everything else over the last twenty years?
Don't get me started on why prices for goods have fallen so sharply. We all know it's due to trade imbalance and outsourcing...neither of which is a good thing, IMO. But we've all become so accustomed to low prices that it would be a VERY tough thing for American society to deal with were those two geopolitical trends to reverse themselves.
__________________ VOTE Tarquin Fin-tim-lim-bim-lim-bin-bim-bin-bim Bus Stop F'tang F'tang Olé Biscuitbarrel IN 2008!!
I think 'Foolish Spenders' is a subjective judgement...especially when you don't know the ins-and-outs of the individuals finances.
I suppose on an individual level, sure. But in the big picture, it's safe to say we're a debtor nation from the top (President saying "go shopping!" and using the Treasury as a credit card) to the bottom (subprime mortgage crisis).
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyBoeingJets
When you say luxuries are more readily available and much cheaper than they were in the 70s, I think that's what has made those things "descend" (for lack of a better word) into daily life from their luxury status.
I'm reading (maybe incorrectly) this as saying that overconsumption is the chief reason for this, and I don't know that I necessarily agree with that. Give the companies some credit for producing better-quality products for cheaper. It's one of the best features of capitalism.
EDIT: Re-reading, and you're just saying that the reason these luxury items are becoming everyday items are because they're cheap. Disregard my objection then. My earlier comment was objecting to Moore's point that these kids don't grasp the concept of phones not being an everyday item because they are financially irresponsible and that this is a microcosm of the entire middle class. Moving on...
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyBoeingJets
Prices for so many things have fallen drastically. Sure, utilities and gasoline have gone up, but have they gone up so much as to offset the drop in everything else over the last twenty years?
Prices for luxury goods have fallen, sure. But rising fuel costs are going to hit all sectors across the board (basically anything requiring transportation), from food prices (have you seen what a gallon of milk costs lately? sheesh.) to whatever else you want to throw out there.
There are a lot of factors worth looking at: real wage stagnating, the wealthy investing primarily abroad (because that's where all the money is), a lot more two-income families than ever before, etc.
Let's just say on a personal level I'm glad that starting in summer I'll be out of the economy for three years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyBoeingJets
Don't get me started on why prices for goods have fallen so sharply. We all know it's due to trade imbalance and outsourcing...neither of which is a good thing, IMO. But we've all become so accustomed to low prices that it would be a VERY tough thing for American society to deal with were those two geopolitical trends to reverse themselves.
Bad for U.S. hegemony and disproportionately bad for U.S. unskilled workers sure, but in overall terms good for the world and the American consumer IMO. Depends on who/what your priorities are.
America is going to have to figure out how to help the needs of their blue-collar workers to avoid the backlash. It's the reason, for example, Hillary is pandering about NAFTA in Ohio et al. when she's voted for it pretty much every single time.
Last edited by Joe Hoya; March 17th, 2008 at 02:41 PM.
Interesting. The 'Middle-Class' should give up their 'luxeries' in tough times, but the 'Upper-Class' should never give up their tax cuts at any time.
When times get tough, call me crazy, but the first thing I cut out of the Budget are luxeries. The bottle of wine that cost 10-20 bucks gets replaced by 2 buck chuck. Giving up luxeries is common sense when its time to tighten the belt. If the middle class refuses to give up luxeries in tough times they deserve to go broke.
So we bemoan when US companies leave the country or outsource their labor-dont you think maybe raising taxes on them might make the companies who stay in the US and not outsource think twice?
__________________ "The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools."
Giving up luxuries is common sense when its time to tighten the belt. If the middle class refuses to give up luxuries in tough times they deserve to go broke.
I don't think anyone disagrees with this, but fiscal responsibility should be happening at all levels.
I hate to break it to you guys, but this ain't the half of it. I'm in this industry, and prices are going way up for necessities, people are getting deeper and deeper into debt, and nobody is saving money. People are spending too much money to buy things they can't afford to impress people they don't even know. This is how our culture is, and because of the irresponsible actions of an industry, and an administration, it's only going to get worse.
If you don't believe me, consider this: Several months ago it was discovered that the savings rate of Americans is in the red. On average, people are actually spending more than they make. The only other time this has happened on record (although please note that this is the point they started keeping track) was the Great Depression. Not the housing crash of the 90's, nor the oil crisis of the 70s. The Great Depression.
Also please note that the credit crunch is a large factor in why this is happening. More home ARMs will reset this June/July than they have throughout this entire episode (edit: not combined). It's the months after that when we'll get the greatest amount of foreclosures and scare people the most.
__________________ -Fish
"When you can't run anymore you crawl, and when you can't crawl, when you can't do that..."
Karma to whomever can finish that.
I don't think anyone disagrees with this, but fiscal responsibility should be happening at all levels.
Agreed. I think the best thing to do for the state of California would be to have all politicians rank the most important programs numerically, run a consensus that shows the average ranking of all programs across the board and start cutting at the lowest ranking programs/expenditures.
Before we start cutting police and fire-shouldnt we start with secretaries and office staff?
__________________ "The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools."
Before we start cutting police and fire-shouldnt we start with secretaries and office staff?
Let's start with cutting street-sweepers on residential streets. Let the people who live in the houses sweep their own damned gutters. Those things don't do anything but spread crap around anyway.
Then they can take down the ****ing "No Parking" sign in front of my house. Oh, wait. If they do that, they wouldn't be able to shake me down for $200 a year for parking in front of my own home.
__________________ VOTE Tarquin Fin-tim-lim-bim-lim-bin-bim-bin-bim Bus Stop F'tang F'tang Olé Biscuitbarrel IN 2008!!
When times get tough, call me crazy, but the first thing I cut out of the Budget are luxeries. The bottle of wine that cost 10-20 bucks gets replaced by 2 buck chuck. Giving up luxeries is common sense when its time to tighten the belt. If the middle class refuses to give up luxeries in tough times they deserve to go broke.
So we bemoan when US companies leave the country or outsource their labor-dont you think maybe raising taxes on them might make the companies who stay in the US and not outsource think twice?
I agree with belt tightening. But, part of tigthening means you only spend on things that matter. Does Iraq matter? Does it help the economy to have people's investment money and estate taxes cut? No.
Companies will leave the US regardless of the tax rate. They can have a tax free ride, and still leave to operate outside of the US, look at what some of the pharmaceuticals have done.
The thing is, that if you expect one group of people to be financially prudent, then you should expect everyone to be that way, I mean if we all care about our country. And, shouldn't the example be set by our 'leaders'? But, Duh-bya is telling everyone to go out and spend, does that mean he doesn't have any common sense either? So, can we say it's his fault people are going broke?
Last edited by Tweenerz; March 17th, 2008 at 04:44 PM.
FlyBoeingJets
'Living Large' - Is the Middle Class as bad off as the talking heads say? 
