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About This Page: This is a discussion on Politics within the LetsGoKings.com forums, at Los Angeles Kings Hockey Fan Forum. http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/flipflops
Six dozen notable reversals by McCain documented here
"Straight talk"? Really? No matter where on the political spectrum you fall, and perhaps especially if you count yourself a conservative,
Six dozen notable reversals by McCain documented here
"Straight talk"? Really? No matter where on the political spectrum you fall, and perhaps especially if you count yourself a conservative, or an independent who has taken McCain's "maverick" claims seriously, there is plenty here to make you doubt this guy and his word.
__________________
"For if once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination." Thomas DeQuincey, 1700's
Six dozen notable reversals by McCain documented here
"Straight talk"? Really? No matter where on the political spectrum you fall, and perhaps especially if you count yourself a conservative, or an independent who has taken McCain's "maverick" claims seriously, there is plenty here to make you doubt this guy and his word.
It's not like that Obama hasn't flipped flopped. Come on Leo you can do better than that.
__________________ Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote
It's not like that Obama hasn't flipped flopped. Come on Leo you can do better than that.
Please BAD, you know full well that whether Obama has flipped on things or not doesn't mean McCain HASN'T flip flopped as is documented in the piece I posted.
So is McCain a major league flip flopper who has cynically abandoned position after position to appeal to the right or not? These examples of McCain reversals are documented by direct quotations from McCain that are on the record. I'm interested in whether, after reading the article, conservatives on the board honestly think he has been truthful when he has shifted to these ultra-conservative positions, and whether other independent types on the board who are considering voting for McCain, having read the article, feel that McCain is a "maverick" and an honest guy or whether we're looking at a new (or the real) McCain now. Look at the evidence here and tell me if these reversals fit with the "McCain" he is selling through his campaign.
Six dozen notable reversals by McCain documented here
"Straight talk"? Really? No matter where on the political spectrum you fall, and perhaps especially if you count yourself a conservative, or an independent who has taken McCain's "maverick" claims seriously, there is plenty here to make you doubt this guy and his word.
I thought these guys were allowed to re-evaluate and change their mind? Isn't that what you guys on the left have bashed Bush for regarding many things? That he's stubborn to a fault and won't shift his views at all?
I thought these guys were allowed to re-evaluate and change their mind? Isn't that what you guys on the left have bashed Bush for regarding many things? That he's stubborn to a fault and won't shift his views at all?
So is it your position that McCain is honestly reevaluating and changing his mind on these 74 issues?
As for the Bush part, nobody I know on the left side has bashed Bush because he's stubborn and inflexible. His problem isn't that. That's a press "criticism" of him and it's crap because it's not the issue with Bush. Bush's chosen method was to be dogmatic, fanatical and uncompromising in his pursuit of his policy goals. His problem isn't his learning curve, his problem is his ideology. He knew what he wanted to do and he did it. Bush didn't "make mistakes," he did what he wanted and worked to achieve his goals and he is entirely responsible for the foreign policy, economic, environmental, social, and legal results he's left for the country. Bush isn't inflexible, he's just a conservative Republican pursuing the Republican agenda. If you're a conservative you should approve of Bush and the polls show that nearly all conservatives do and almost no one else does. That's why Bush's approval numbers are stuck in the 30% range. That's about the same number in the population that IDs as conservative.
Anyone who likes Bush policies should vote for McCain since the list of changes (or flip flops, or lies) by McCain posted here shows McCain to presently be virtually identical to Bush in his ideology and goals--and that's by McCain's own account.
Last edited by Leonidas; August 25th, 2008 at 01:28 PM.
Since Pelosi and the Democrat controlled Congress is running at a 9% approval rate we should be them in charge of the White House too?
Newsflash:
Approval ratings for Congress as a whole mean jack-diddly. Democrats are going to rate down the Republicans and vice-versa. Plus the best congress can do right now is force a veto.
Look at specific approval ratings for senators and representatives for a more accurate picture.
__________________ "If I could lead you into the Promised Land, I would not do it, because someone else would come along and lead you out."
So is it your position that McCain is honestly reevaluating and changing his mind on these 74 issues?
Not all 74, no. Probably some. Likely not most though. I'm just jumping on a comment than many on the left have said about Kerry (in the past) and Obama (now sometimes). I would imagine that most of their position changes are due to political expediency rather than heartfelt change.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonidas
As for the Bush part, nobody I know on the left side has bashed Bush because he's stubborn and inflexible. His problem isn't that. That's a press "criticism" of him and it's crap because it's not the issue with Bush.
I won't say it's the main issue people on the left have brought up, but I know of several that have. Personally. To me. I've even seen it on these forums in relation to the point I made above. That people would WISH Bush would flip-flop on an issue and that there isn't anything wrong with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonidas
Bush isn't inflexible, he's just a conservative Republican pursuing the Republican agenda. If you're a conservative you should approve of Bush and the polls show that nearly all conservatives do and almost no one else does. That's why Bush's approval numbers are stuck in the 30% range. That's about the same number in the population that IDs as conservative.
You KNOW I'm going to disagree with your comments here. What has been "conservative" in his presidency? He's spent more money than anybody ever (Prescription Drug plan. Expansion of medicare). He's been involved in nation building all over the world. He's expanded the size of gov't (Dept of Homeland Security). He's gotten involved in personal liberties (Patriot Act, wiretapping, etc.). If you want to argue that he's done some things that the evangelicals on the right would aprove of, fine. But that's hardly anything to do with the conservative principles of gov't.
You KNOW I'm going to disagree with your comments here. What has been "conservative" in his presidency? He's spent more money than anybody ever (Prescription Drug plan. Expansion of medicare). He's been involved in nation building all over the world. He's expanded the size of gov't (Dept of Homeland Security). He's gotten involved in personal liberties (Patriot Act, wiretapping, etc.). If you want to argue that he's done some things that the evangelicals on the right would aprove of, fine. But that's hardly anything to do with the conservative principles of gov't.
There is a difference between the neoconservatism of the Bush/GOP kind and paleoconservatism which is what you're referring to.
You KNOW I'm going to disagree with your comments here. What has been "conservative" in his presidency? He's spent more money than anybody ever (Prescription Drug plan. Expansion of medicare). He's been involved in nation building all over the world. He's expanded the size of gov't (Dept of Homeland Security). He's gotten involved in personal liberties (Patriot Act, wiretapping, etc.). If you want to argue that he's done some things that the evangelicals on the right would aprove of, fine. But that's hardly anything to do with the conservative principles of gov't.
I know you're sincere in saying this Smythe, but conservatism as it is practiced today, by the party that defines itself as conservative and that recieves banana republic majorities of votes from the citizens who also define themselves as conservative--that conservatism is the one that you describe above. The libertarian tinged conservatism of the early sixties is dead and buried even though the principles you spell out are popular with lots of people who still vote Republican. But where else do they have to go in a two party presidential system?
All of the government actions you mentioned above were proposed and enacted by Bush as president with a Republican majority in both houses of Congress. They were in a position to enact what they wanted to and what you list above are the choices they made.
Specifically, modern American conservatism as it is practiced is no longer for smaller government and non-interference with personal liberties. Now the philosophy is to use and expand government power in order to channel wealth and influence to voting and corporate constituencies of the party. Those parts of the government you can't use this way you make ineffective by giving party loyalists control over them and defunding them. Nationalism and corporatism are what modern conservatives are all about. When Republicans today talk about the old values it means no more in a practical sense than it does when Democrats talk about being the party of Andrew Jackson.
Since Pelosi and the Democrat controlled Congress is running at a 9% approval rate we should be them in charge of the White House too?
That's not a poll that reveals the publics opposition to or support for either the Republicans or the Democrats in the House and Senate. It reveals that voters in both parties as well as independents think the Congress as an institution is deadlocked and disfunctional because the parties are at war with each other. The only power of either party at the moment is to make the initiatives of the other impossible to achieve.
If you want the federal government to "work" at all in the US both the presidency and a working majority in both houses (meaning until the rules change in the Senate 60 votes available to one party)will have to be in the hands of one party or the other.
When are you people going to learn? It doesn't matter who you vote for, either way you are screwed...get used to it and you'll be much happier.
You don't understand. One of these guys is going to take personal responsibility out of life, and one of them isn't. We have to choose the right one, man!
Since Pelosi and the Democrat controlled Congress is running at a 9% approval rate we should be them in charge of the White House too?
Trent Lott said that they would not let the Democrats pass any meaningful legislation this term so that they could run against them in 2008 declaring that they were the "do nothing congress." The Republicans have proven this by fillibustering more bills than any congress in history. More than 90 pieces of legislation so far this congressional term. They always called the Democrats "obstructionists." F'in hypocrites.
__________________ Sole member of the Mark Visheau fan club.
Trent Lott said that they would not let the Democrats pass any meaningful legislation this term so that they could run against them in 2008 declaring that they were the "do nothing congress." The Republicans have proven this by fillibustering more bills than any congress in history. More than 90 pieces of legislation so far this congressional term. They always called the Democrats "obstructionists." F'in hypocrites.
The (currently) definitive McCain flip-flop list 
SmytheKing
